Sunday, November 18, 2007
Extremists...for love...-Todd M. facilitating
Hello...
I trust God and I trust that if you were in class today that God pushed and prodded us all.
Today, I really appreciated the discussion and thoughfulness. If you didn't know, I was very nervous to teach this week and I am just going to trust that God was speaking through me. I know that somethings that came out of my mouth may have been controversial for some and I am ok with that for now...God uses me sometimes to push and challenge, but nothing he isn't asking of me before hand.
We looked at the word extremist and wrote down the first word that popped in to our minds... Some of those words were fantatic, Sacrificial, right-wing and left-wing, gay/lesbian, violent, doritos, x-games...
Today's theme was extremists of love...
In my life during this book there has been a question that keeps coming back to me:
As Christians, what are we known for? And I guess the better question for me after today is why are we known for Truth more than for Love?
Today, I made a bold statement that I am willingly going to stand by. The church tends to err to much on Truth. What I mean by that in general is we are much more willing to vote against gay marraige than to build a friendship with gay people. What I mean by that is we are more willing to sit and protest and say that abortion is wrong than rise up as a church and say to people who are going to abort their unborn children that we will take them, We will take them all, we will care for you, we don't care how you got in to this, we will love you and care for you becuase we act on what we believe...
It is much easier to legislate morality and truth, then to enter the mess with people...
The one thing today that I keep wondering about as I left is "Why do feel like what I said is so shocking? It's not...God's job is truth, ours is love...Are we to oppose sinful behaviors? Yes, but it's how we oppose it that matters becuase I'll tell ya, if we start making the offer to take all the unborn children who might otherwise go the way of abortion than 2 things will happen.
1. We will have such a logistical problem that I don't know where to begin...how could we actually do it? Honesty, that is big enough problem that we would need God becuase it's impossible.
2. People would see that we really believe in Love that we talk about and they would be busting down our doors to know Jesus. Our grace and life would be radical...
Now, place your thoughts here...
Here are a couple of blogs that have been looking at this subject in different ways:
Greg Boyd: Check out his entries on waching Osama feet and his next entry where he says things way better than me:
http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2007/11/washing-osamas-feet.html
The worst heresy. This is exactly the truth vs. love debate. He's good.
http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2007/11/worst-heresy-imaginable.html
Also check out Neil Craigan(former Hope-intern and presbyterian Pastor in DC area, He has 2 intersting posts that are in this realm:
http://www.neilcraigan.com/brokenbonds_loosedchains/2007/11/culture-wars-ju.html
Neil also wrote this on this subject of what are we known for:
http://www.neilcraigan.com/brokenbonds_loosedchains/2007/11/reflections-of-.html
Dear Jesus help us to see that makin errors on the side of love is not radical idea, but a Truth that we live by. Help us to see that making an err toward truth is the exception and not the rule. Let us live messy lives because we are messy too.
Amen,
LiFE
I trust God and I trust that if you were in class today that God pushed and prodded us all.
Today, I really appreciated the discussion and thoughfulness. If you didn't know, I was very nervous to teach this week and I am just going to trust that God was speaking through me. I know that somethings that came out of my mouth may have been controversial for some and I am ok with that for now...God uses me sometimes to push and challenge, but nothing he isn't asking of me before hand.
We looked at the word extremist and wrote down the first word that popped in to our minds... Some of those words were fantatic, Sacrificial, right-wing and left-wing, gay/lesbian, violent, doritos, x-games...
Today's theme was extremists of love...
In my life during this book there has been a question that keeps coming back to me:
As Christians, what are we known for? And I guess the better question for me after today is why are we known for Truth more than for Love?
Today, I made a bold statement that I am willingly going to stand by. The church tends to err to much on Truth. What I mean by that in general is we are much more willing to vote against gay marraige than to build a friendship with gay people. What I mean by that is we are more willing to sit and protest and say that abortion is wrong than rise up as a church and say to people who are going to abort their unborn children that we will take them, We will take them all, we will care for you, we don't care how you got in to this, we will love you and care for you becuase we act on what we believe...
It is much easier to legislate morality and truth, then to enter the mess with people...
The one thing today that I keep wondering about as I left is "Why do feel like what I said is so shocking? It's not...God's job is truth, ours is love...Are we to oppose sinful behaviors? Yes, but it's how we oppose it that matters becuase I'll tell ya, if we start making the offer to take all the unborn children who might otherwise go the way of abortion than 2 things will happen.
1. We will have such a logistical problem that I don't know where to begin...how could we actually do it? Honesty, that is big enough problem that we would need God becuase it's impossible.
2. People would see that we really believe in Love that we talk about and they would be busting down our doors to know Jesus. Our grace and life would be radical...
Now, place your thoughts here...
Here are a couple of blogs that have been looking at this subject in different ways:
Greg Boyd: Check out his entries on waching Osama feet and his next entry where he says things way better than me:
http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2007/11/washing-osamas-feet.html
The worst heresy. This is exactly the truth vs. love debate. He's good.
http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2007/11/worst-heresy-imaginable.html
Also check out Neil Craigan(former Hope-intern and presbyterian Pastor in DC area, He has 2 intersting posts that are in this realm:
http://www.neilcraigan.com/brokenbonds_loosedchains/2007/11/culture-wars-ju.html
Neil also wrote this on this subject of what are we known for:
http://www.neilcraigan.com/brokenbonds_loosedchains/2007/11/reflections-of-.html
Dear Jesus help us to see that makin errors on the side of love is not radical idea, but a Truth that we live by. Help us to see that making an err toward truth is the exception and not the rule. Let us live messy lives because we are messy too.
Amen,
LiFE
Comments:
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For me, the 'radical' or 'extreme' idea in the discussion was the idea of needing to choose between love and truth. In general terms, we were discussing scenarios that are full of variables that end up making the scenarios seem unanswerable.
My takeaway from today's discussion involve taking a step back and looking at the Biblical relationship between love and truth. My perception of the truth as it was being discussed in the class today seemed to lean more towards an attitude of judgement rather than an attitude guided by the truth. The same is true for the idea of love. How does the Scripture define love? How does it relate to truth? My perception of the love being discussed was a love guided by avoiding conflict. There is room for discernment when we are called on to testify on God's behalf, and there is not a cookie cutter response for our day to day situations. At the same time I am struggling with the concept of what love looks like apart from the truth.
With Jesus being our model, I look at the time that he spent in front of Pilate and Pilate asked Jesus what his purpose was. In John 16:37 John writes, Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this reason I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." Jesus is our model for loving others. At the same time he says that His purpose was to testify to the truth. I believe His knowledge and understanding of the truth serve as the motivation of His love for the people held captive by the sins of this world. My hope is that I can learn from his example.
Kevin
My takeaway from today's discussion involve taking a step back and looking at the Biblical relationship between love and truth. My perception of the truth as it was being discussed in the class today seemed to lean more towards an attitude of judgement rather than an attitude guided by the truth. The same is true for the idea of love. How does the Scripture define love? How does it relate to truth? My perception of the love being discussed was a love guided by avoiding conflict. There is room for discernment when we are called on to testify on God's behalf, and there is not a cookie cutter response for our day to day situations. At the same time I am struggling with the concept of what love looks like apart from the truth.
With Jesus being our model, I look at the time that he spent in front of Pilate and Pilate asked Jesus what his purpose was. In John 16:37 John writes, Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this reason I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." Jesus is our model for loving others. At the same time he says that His purpose was to testify to the truth. I believe His knowledge and understanding of the truth serve as the motivation of His love for the people held captive by the sins of this world. My hope is that I can learn from his example.
Kevin
# posted by 
: 1:19 PM
: 1:19 PM
Kevin,
Good thoughts... I think you are right on when you say, truth leans toward judgement becuase I may stand corrected that is generally how we display it as "Christians"
I think in general again that this is where we err and we lean towards that it is better to judge people and be right then it is to really love people period.
Now, I say in general because I do believe in general the church is judgemntal bent but it hides behind the fact that we are to give people truth. It was not long before the verse from Ephesians was brought out in our discussion to tell non-believers what truth is. The problem again is then as believers we are using scripture out of context and that's not good.(before people get upset I used to use it all thetime in that context, but I was wrong too) Our truth argument lands squarely on that verse and we are using it wrong.
Now, my suggestion is that we should not avoid conflict for love sake, but err on the side of love becuase again I will speak in generalities that apply to me is that in general we aren't the best at actually discerning God's sprit moving us to speak on God's behalf with people. In general, we have been taught in the past 20 years that scripture is a club of truth and its ok to hit people with it, becuase you are looking out for there salvation. My issue with that is that isn't how it is supposed to be...well let me say that is the exception when God is actually speaking through you to people and hitting people with scripture is not the rule.
Jesus is our model. What did he model and then what did he asks us to do? Love and serve people sacrificially. To lay one self down(also means your agenda). The bottom line that I keep coming back to me it is God's job to supply the truth and it is my job to love. Instead, I find myself and watching others more often than not "do truth" because it is easy and screw up love because it takes so much time and it is so involved...
I probably could say more but Biblically I think Boyd in his blog about the worse heresy does a great job scripturely for a focus than I could ever do.
Great thoughts Kevin!
_todd
Good thoughts... I think you are right on when you say, truth leans toward judgement becuase I may stand corrected that is generally how we display it as "Christians"
I think in general again that this is where we err and we lean towards that it is better to judge people and be right then it is to really love people period.
Now, I say in general because I do believe in general the church is judgemntal bent but it hides behind the fact that we are to give people truth. It was not long before the verse from Ephesians was brought out in our discussion to tell non-believers what truth is. The problem again is then as believers we are using scripture out of context and that's not good.(before people get upset I used to use it all thetime in that context, but I was wrong too) Our truth argument lands squarely on that verse and we are using it wrong.
Now, my suggestion is that we should not avoid conflict for love sake, but err on the side of love becuase again I will speak in generalities that apply to me is that in general we aren't the best at actually discerning God's sprit moving us to speak on God's behalf with people. In general, we have been taught in the past 20 years that scripture is a club of truth and its ok to hit people with it, becuase you are looking out for there salvation. My issue with that is that isn't how it is supposed to be...well let me say that is the exception when God is actually speaking through you to people and hitting people with scripture is not the rule.
Jesus is our model. What did he model and then what did he asks us to do? Love and serve people sacrificially. To lay one self down(also means your agenda). The bottom line that I keep coming back to me it is God's job to supply the truth and it is my job to love. Instead, I find myself and watching others more often than not "do truth" because it is easy and screw up love because it takes so much time and it is so involved...
I probably could say more but Biblically I think Boyd in his blog about the worse heresy does a great job scripturely for a focus than I could ever do.
Great thoughts Kevin!
_todd
# posted by : 3:13 PM
: 3:13 PM
In the same chapter that we discussed today, Shane talks about his visit to a hospital in Iraq where he met many individuals who were physically affected by the war. The hospital manager says to him, "Violence is for those who have lost their imagination. Has your country lost its imagination?"
I thought Todd shared a creative suggestion today for a response to abortion. One that speaks the truth in love. I hope we all did not lose our imaginations when we graduated from elementary school. So I was wondering if any of you have creative responses to some of the other issues that many of us struggle to know how to respond to in a loving, truth filled, non-judgmental way. (ie: materialism, same sex marriage, terrorism, abortion, prostitution,(insert something you struggle with here))
I know that I have some time to give to making the world a better place while spreading the love of Jesus. Maybe with creative responses to worldly struggles we can change what Christians are 'known for'.
Peace.
I thought Todd shared a creative suggestion today for a response to abortion. One that speaks the truth in love. I hope we all did not lose our imaginations when we graduated from elementary school. So I was wondering if any of you have creative responses to some of the other issues that many of us struggle to know how to respond to in a loving, truth filled, non-judgmental way. (ie: materialism, same sex marriage, terrorism, abortion, prostitution,(insert something you struggle with here))
I know that I have some time to give to making the world a better place while spreading the love of Jesus. Maybe with creative responses to worldly struggles we can change what Christians are 'known for'.
Peace.
I do appreciate the desire to live out Jesus' love. I honestly think we are all on the same page about that even though we express it differently. It is obviously our highest calling. Also, I do agree with Kevin in that truth and love are too closely knit and intertwined that it is not wise to separate them. That said...
These are huge issues -abortion, terrorism, etc. Regarding the creative idea Todd brought up about adopting the children women are planning to abort....I worked in the field of adoption for 8 years and I can say quite confidently the reason women abort is not for lack of families willing to adopt their children. There are thousands on their knees waiting to adopt those "unwanted children". The reasons women abort are far more complex. As are the reasons we are at war with Iraq. To simplify it to a level of "we'll just adopt the kids cuz that's loving" or "we should just pull out of Iraq because that's loving" (as some may say) I think doesn't give attention to the extreme compexity and ramification of the issues. And obviously, just cuz this is complex doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue ways to love. It's just that we may need to do a ton of research and be willing to devote a ton of time to exploring the complexities so we can have the information necessary to make an educated and discerning decision about how to love (which again I believe cannot be separated from truth lest it loses it's beauty and power).
These are huge issues -abortion, terrorism, etc. Regarding the creative idea Todd brought up about adopting the children women are planning to abort....I worked in the field of adoption for 8 years and I can say quite confidently the reason women abort is not for lack of families willing to adopt their children. There are thousands on their knees waiting to adopt those "unwanted children". The reasons women abort are far more complex. As are the reasons we are at war with Iraq. To simplify it to a level of "we'll just adopt the kids cuz that's loving" or "we should just pull out of Iraq because that's loving" (as some may say) I think doesn't give attention to the extreme compexity and ramification of the issues. And obviously, just cuz this is complex doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue ways to love. It's just that we may need to do a ton of research and be willing to devote a ton of time to exploring the complexities so we can have the information necessary to make an educated and discerning decision about how to love (which again I believe cannot be separated from truth lest it loses it's beauty and power).
# posted by : 8:01 AM
: 8:01 AM
Thank you Kevin and Courtney for your eloquent comments. I agree that love and truth are intriquely entwined - God is Love, Jesus is the truth and came to testify to the truth.
Many churches have drifted so far from the truth, their message is no different than the relativism our culture embraces. I do not believe truth has to be judgemental, but it is truth and should not be avoided.
Would I vote against gay marriage and abortion. Absolutely. Do I love my gay friends/family and my friends who have aborted? Absolutely. If they ask me what I think of their choices - I gently present God's truth. I do not preach,I pray for God's words to work in their hearts. I pray for their healing. I think this is a loving thing to do, and I think it's what Christ would do.
I don't think truth was fairly depicted in our conversation. Just as a loving father disciplines his children, truth can sometimes be painful, but in the end, it's worth it. Perhaps if rather than truth we contrasted judmentalism,hate, or religous bigotry to love - the conversation would have made more sense.
Many churches have drifted so far from the truth, their message is no different than the relativism our culture embraces. I do not believe truth has to be judgemental, but it is truth and should not be avoided.
Would I vote against gay marriage and abortion. Absolutely. Do I love my gay friends/family and my friends who have aborted? Absolutely. If they ask me what I think of their choices - I gently present God's truth. I do not preach,I pray for God's words to work in their hearts. I pray for their healing. I think this is a loving thing to do, and I think it's what Christ would do.
I don't think truth was fairly depicted in our conversation. Just as a loving father disciplines his children, truth can sometimes be painful, but in the end, it's worth it. Perhaps if rather than truth we contrasted judmentalism,hate, or religous bigotry to love - the conversation would have made more sense.
# posted by : 1:39 PM
: 1:39 PM
Good thought by all...
2 things keep running through my head. #1 I never backed down from the truth of scripture that we are to oppose sin. I never said, "Love = relativism, nor did I ever say that Love=ignoring sin" HOwever, I am learning that is exactly how it was interpreted.
I present that we are better left letting God do his job of giving truth and keep to our commands of loving people.
The continues to be a disconnect for me with what God has called us to be and this continued call to truth before love in these responses. I just keep seeing the error of truth before love...which is exactly what this chapter was about.
This question: what does what love looks like apart from the truth? Is a good question. Here is my attempt to make a seperation. My wife asks me "do I look good in this dress?" IN that moment I have 2 option right...To say yes or no. What if she doesn't look good? Saying "No, would hurt her becuase she's excited about the dress. Saying "yes" means you are lying and that isn't an option becuase we want to be truthful.(lying is an option but let's not go there).
SO what do you do? Truth or love. A 3rd option presents itself well within the realm of truth but completely wrapped in love. "Honey you look beautiful in anything you wear!" But wait she doesn't look good in the dress so isn't that a lie? No, Because doesn't God call us to see with different eyes, in fact our own eyes keep us from seeing the what is true.
My question is where does God keep calling us to be the truth police in scripture? Where does he ask us to impose our will on people by legislating what people can and cannot do? Is that what God means by "make disciples of all nations?"
I think when I look at truth it is automatically judgmental and maybe the very reason why, we are not called to be the Truth. Jesus is truth, His truth is written on our hearts, His spirit convicts us of the truth, his spirit guides us in the truth.
Another thought, I don't actually know a whole lot of people who deny their brokeness, they may deny that living with their boyfriend is an act of brokeness in fact they might even say that they are committing a loving act. However, I don't need convince them that they are broken. So why must I push my issue on them that they shouldn't be living together? I have my own sh*t to deal with. Do I not trust God that in his time he will draw them and convict them? Does God not have more love for their eternal soul than me? I know, I know but what if God would use me to sepak truth to them...He can but I would argue that he does that much less than we believe...and yes that means I am also saying that we aren't that great at hearing God's voice...neither am I, so why not err on love instead of speaking for God....enough for now.
Keep the thoughts coming!
-Todd
Ps. please don't post anonymous thoughts, own what you say.
2 things keep running through my head. #1 I never backed down from the truth of scripture that we are to oppose sin. I never said, "Love = relativism, nor did I ever say that Love=ignoring sin" HOwever, I am learning that is exactly how it was interpreted.
I present that we are better left letting God do his job of giving truth and keep to our commands of loving people.
The continues to be a disconnect for me with what God has called us to be and this continued call to truth before love in these responses. I just keep seeing the error of truth before love...which is exactly what this chapter was about.
This question: what does what love looks like apart from the truth? Is a good question. Here is my attempt to make a seperation. My wife asks me "do I look good in this dress?" IN that moment I have 2 option right...To say yes or no. What if she doesn't look good? Saying "No, would hurt her becuase she's excited about the dress. Saying "yes" means you are lying and that isn't an option becuase we want to be truthful.(lying is an option but let's not go there).
SO what do you do? Truth or love. A 3rd option presents itself well within the realm of truth but completely wrapped in love. "Honey you look beautiful in anything you wear!" But wait she doesn't look good in the dress so isn't that a lie? No, Because doesn't God call us to see with different eyes, in fact our own eyes keep us from seeing the what is true.
My question is where does God keep calling us to be the truth police in scripture? Where does he ask us to impose our will on people by legislating what people can and cannot do? Is that what God means by "make disciples of all nations?"
I think when I look at truth it is automatically judgmental and maybe the very reason why, we are not called to be the Truth. Jesus is truth, His truth is written on our hearts, His spirit convicts us of the truth, his spirit guides us in the truth.
Another thought, I don't actually know a whole lot of people who deny their brokeness, they may deny that living with their boyfriend is an act of brokeness in fact they might even say that they are committing a loving act. However, I don't need convince them that they are broken. So why must I push my issue on them that they shouldn't be living together? I have my own sh*t to deal with. Do I not trust God that in his time he will draw them and convict them? Does God not have more love for their eternal soul than me? I know, I know but what if God would use me to sepak truth to them...He can but I would argue that he does that much less than we believe...and yes that means I am also saying that we aren't that great at hearing God's voice...neither am I, so why not err on love instead of speaking for God....enough for now.
Keep the thoughts coming!
-Todd
Ps. please don't post anonymous thoughts, own what you say.
# posted by : 2:47 PM
: 2:47 PM
I agree with Kevin that it is extreme to suggest that truth and love can be separated. In fact, I am quite disturbed by it! Truth should not be confused with judgement. They are two separate things.
Truth: reality, actuality, consisent with God's special revelation..
Judging: to pass sentence, to condemn, to act or decide as judge, to form a negative opinion about, good sense.
The Bible has a lot to say about Truth, and my question is, can you have love without truth? Perhaps the two extremes should be grace and law. I agree with Todd that many times Christians are more concerned with being right or having an agenda, then extending grace. Jesus is grace and truth - they are not mutually exclusive. Here are a few of the multitude of passages that show what truth is:
John 1:14 - The Word became flesh and dwelt among us . . full of grace and TRUTH.
John 2:19 - 21 - light vs darkness .. but whoever lives by TRUTH, comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. (maybe this is why some equate truth with judgement - the truth exposes sin)
John 1:17 = For the law was given through Moses; grace and TRUTH through Jesus Christ.
John 4: 23 & 24 - A time is coming and has now come when when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in TRUTH, for they are the kind of worshippers the father seeks. .. his worshippers must worship in sprit and TRUTH.
John 14:6 - Jesus answered, 'I am the Way and the TRUTH and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'
John 14: 16 - 17 - And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of TRUTH.
John 16:13 - But when he, the Spirit of TRUTH comes, he will guide you into all TRUTH.
John 17:17 - Jesus prayed for his disciples, 'Sanctify them by your truth, your word is truth."
John 12:47 Jesus "For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it."
Jesus tells us not to judge, lest we be judged. He did not humiliate or lecture to the adulterous woman. He said 'Then neither do I condemn you", Jesus delared, "Go now and leave your life of sin" (John 8:11). Jesus did not condemn, but spoke the truth.
Jesus is the Truth, God has given us the Spirit of Truth to guide us, God's word is Truth. We should never forsake the truth, nor should we forsake love. Of course, since we are all wretched, we'll never get it perfect! We should strive to walk in the truth, being guided by the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit), seeking to understand truth (God's word), with Truth living in us (Jesus Christ) in order to love others as Christ has commanded us.
I also agree with Lynn, that we should seek imaginative solutions, that is what Jesus did when faced with the adulterous woman situation. He turned the tables on the 'righteous' and exposed their sin. So my prayer is that the Body of Christ would unite to find ways to bring God's grace and light to the darkness of lies and the brokenness left by a life separated from God.
Todd, thanks for challenging me to think about how I can be more loving and graceful when confronted with lies. Sue
Truth: reality, actuality, consisent with God's special revelation..
Judging: to pass sentence, to condemn, to act or decide as judge, to form a negative opinion about, good sense.
The Bible has a lot to say about Truth, and my question is, can you have love without truth? Perhaps the two extremes should be grace and law. I agree with Todd that many times Christians are more concerned with being right or having an agenda, then extending grace. Jesus is grace and truth - they are not mutually exclusive. Here are a few of the multitude of passages that show what truth is:
John 1:14 - The Word became flesh and dwelt among us . . full of grace and TRUTH.
John 2:19 - 21 - light vs darkness .. but whoever lives by TRUTH, comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. (maybe this is why some equate truth with judgement - the truth exposes sin)
John 1:17 = For the law was given through Moses; grace and TRUTH through Jesus Christ.
John 4: 23 & 24 - A time is coming and has now come when when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in TRUTH, for they are the kind of worshippers the father seeks. .. his worshippers must worship in sprit and TRUTH.
John 14:6 - Jesus answered, 'I am the Way and the TRUTH and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'
John 14: 16 - 17 - And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of TRUTH.
John 16:13 - But when he, the Spirit of TRUTH comes, he will guide you into all TRUTH.
John 17:17 - Jesus prayed for his disciples, 'Sanctify them by your truth, your word is truth."
John 12:47 Jesus "For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it."
Jesus tells us not to judge, lest we be judged. He did not humiliate or lecture to the adulterous woman. He said 'Then neither do I condemn you", Jesus delared, "Go now and leave your life of sin" (John 8:11). Jesus did not condemn, but spoke the truth.
Jesus is the Truth, God has given us the Spirit of Truth to guide us, God's word is Truth. We should never forsake the truth, nor should we forsake love. Of course, since we are all wretched, we'll never get it perfect! We should strive to walk in the truth, being guided by the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit), seeking to understand truth (God's word), with Truth living in us (Jesus Christ) in order to love others as Christ has commanded us.
I also agree with Lynn, that we should seek imaginative solutions, that is what Jesus did when faced with the adulterous woman situation. He turned the tables on the 'righteous' and exposed their sin. So my prayer is that the Body of Christ would unite to find ways to bring God's grace and light to the darkness of lies and the brokenness left by a life separated from God.
Todd, thanks for challenging me to think about how I can be more loving and graceful when confronted with lies. Sue
# posted by : 8:10 AM
: 8:10 AM
Regarding imaginative ideas in loving...it is easy to generalize about "the church" and the shortcomings of our brothers and sisters. However, if we are being real, it's important to acknowledge the work that the Lord is up to through His church as they express love and truth. I speak again to the abortion issue because that's where my "professional" experience lies. There is an amazing body of believers taking a creative approach to reaching out to women considering abortion. Here are some of the ways an organization called New Life Family Services has designed to allow others in the body of Christ to participate...
1)They've infiltrated the public school system by the grace of God and hold 6-8 week sessions with students desiring to learn about healthy relationships, and remaining sexually pure. You can volunteer/be trained to facilitate one of these groups (7th grade-high school)
2)They have a smiling face greeting the clients who come in for pregnancy tests, assist in a parenting program supporting those who have chosen life, facilitating the giving of maternity/baby items to those in need, some paperwork help for the staff meeting with post abortive clients, pre adoptive clients, etc. You can be this volunteer once a week.
3) They have a crisis hotline 24 hours a day where women and men call with questions about relationships, abortion, adoption, God, etc. You can volunteer/be trained to be a hotliner in the nights and weekends
4) They have designed a banquet the weekend of Mother's Day to honor mothers who have chosen to place their children in adoptive homes. While many look at those women and think "how could you give away your child?" New Life honors their selfless choice to put their child's needs before their own. You can volunteer to help with this event.
5)When a birthmother delivers her child she often doesn't get the cultural blessing of people coming to share gifts with the baby and celebrate this new life. It is often a time of very mixed emotions - joy and grief in the loss of her child. New Life brings a big gift basket for each mother placing for adoption filled with treats just for her. You can put together these gift baskets.
6) Often women who chose life for their children are ostricized from their community and need a place to stay. "Support Homes" are families who allow these women to live with them for the duration of the pregnancy and a little while after as a support system for them during this difficult season. You can volunteer to house these women.
These are only a handful of things New Life has creatively thought of. I just want to help accurately show that the Lord is HUGELY at work in loving people with his grace and truth! We just have to open our eyes to see where we can plug in to what He's up to.
Like I said, I have insight into the abortion/adoption world, but as Lynn mentioned, there are tons of other struggles of people in the world. Let's just see what grabs our heart and maybe it's time to stop talking and start taking action?
1)They've infiltrated the public school system by the grace of God and hold 6-8 week sessions with students desiring to learn about healthy relationships, and remaining sexually pure. You can volunteer/be trained to facilitate one of these groups (7th grade-high school)
2)They have a smiling face greeting the clients who come in for pregnancy tests, assist in a parenting program supporting those who have chosen life, facilitating the giving of maternity/baby items to those in need, some paperwork help for the staff meeting with post abortive clients, pre adoptive clients, etc. You can be this volunteer once a week.
3) They have a crisis hotline 24 hours a day where women and men call with questions about relationships, abortion, adoption, God, etc. You can volunteer/be trained to be a hotliner in the nights and weekends
4) They have designed a banquet the weekend of Mother's Day to honor mothers who have chosen to place their children in adoptive homes. While many look at those women and think "how could you give away your child?" New Life honors their selfless choice to put their child's needs before their own. You can volunteer to help with this event.
5)When a birthmother delivers her child she often doesn't get the cultural blessing of people coming to share gifts with the baby and celebrate this new life. It is often a time of very mixed emotions - joy and grief in the loss of her child. New Life brings a big gift basket for each mother placing for adoption filled with treats just for her. You can put together these gift baskets.
6) Often women who chose life for their children are ostricized from their community and need a place to stay. "Support Homes" are families who allow these women to live with them for the duration of the pregnancy and a little while after as a support system for them during this difficult season. You can volunteer to house these women.
These are only a handful of things New Life has creatively thought of. I just want to help accurately show that the Lord is HUGELY at work in loving people with his grace and truth! We just have to open our eyes to see where we can plug in to what He's up to.
Like I said, I have insight into the abortion/adoption world, but as Lynn mentioned, there are tons of other struggles of people in the world. Let's just see what grabs our heart and maybe it's time to stop talking and start taking action?
# posted by : 9:55 AM
: 9:55 AM
Wonderful thoughts...
I appreciate the scripture verse. Thanks Sue. I want to call attention to who brings the truth in all those verses. We are to live by truth in our lives but no where does it say that we are to insist(force) truth on anyone. Jesus has already put the truth on our hearts.
Courtney thanks for the creative ways we can love people in that arena.
What I love is we are pushing way beyond the norm here as we talk and discuss this stuff as community.
keep it up!
-Todd
I appreciate the scripture verse. Thanks Sue. I want to call attention to who brings the truth in all those verses. We are to live by truth in our lives but no where does it say that we are to insist(force) truth on anyone. Jesus has already put the truth on our hearts.
Courtney thanks for the creative ways we can love people in that arena.
What I love is we are pushing way beyond the norm here as we talk and discuss this stuff as community.
keep it up!
-Todd
# posted by : 3:31 PM
: 3:31 PM
I have thought so much about this since sunday.
I think what makes Claiborne’s ideas seem so "radical" and "extreme" is that it is more black and white than we'd like to admit. Even in this discussion i can see people want with a God -seeking passion, to never abandon truth...which is valid and legitimate.. but if we think back to basics, if we acknowledge what Jesus actually called us to do...the black and white aspect is maybe more clear yet probably the biggest challenge any American Christian will ever face.
My Soul has been stirred, (or maybe more adequately put.. "jacked up") and its because of what this all might lead to.
I've sat in Jesus' sermon on the mount in Matthew for a couple days now and it does nothing less that stir up my comfortablity.
I think what this leads to is sacrifice. The weight of this concept, I believe, is huge. Huge.
If we talk about loving and living that love…I think we inevitably have to talk about creativity…those ideas listed above by Courtney are a great input to this.
The other thing that’s been running through my mind is what could happen if we looked at a “what if” mentality…. What are the ramifications to some of these questions?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but no matter if we’re married, single, parents, grandparents etc…is there not a sense of all or nothing about this? You either live love or you don’t? When push really comes to shove? I see a constant battle between the concepts of territorial flesh vs. Holy Spirit breathed hospitality.
I don’t mean to sound “pep rallyish” with this but "what if"....
What if people knew about what He did?
What if we lived by His example?
What if we went beyond education?
What if we offered our lives for His name’s sake?
What if we hushed for a second and took in His whisper of claim?
What if there was a coming together?
What if love was shown without words?
What if we actually caught a mustard seed sized realization of His purpose?
What if we lived accordingly in the knowledge of His truth?
When this blares in my head there is such a cry…such an urgency that gets fogged over by the going’s on of my day. What if I offered my whole life to this? What if the people I worked with everyday knew that Jesus loved unconditionally? What would it look like if Jesus used me to show them? Sounds exhausting... What would come if people came together over this? I think Claiborne's got some great examples...
Community, Holy Spirit, Prayer…all things I didn’t go into depth about yet are essential for any change to happen.
(Sorry for the novel…)
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I think what makes Claiborne’s ideas seem so "radical" and "extreme" is that it is more black and white than we'd like to admit. Even in this discussion i can see people want with a God -seeking passion, to never abandon truth...which is valid and legitimate.. but if we think back to basics, if we acknowledge what Jesus actually called us to do...the black and white aspect is maybe more clear yet probably the biggest challenge any American Christian will ever face.
My Soul has been stirred, (or maybe more adequately put.. "jacked up") and its because of what this all might lead to.
I've sat in Jesus' sermon on the mount in Matthew for a couple days now and it does nothing less that stir up my comfortablity.
I think what this leads to is sacrifice. The weight of this concept, I believe, is huge. Huge.
If we talk about loving and living that love…I think we inevitably have to talk about creativity…those ideas listed above by Courtney are a great input to this.
The other thing that’s been running through my mind is what could happen if we looked at a “what if” mentality…. What are the ramifications to some of these questions?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but no matter if we’re married, single, parents, grandparents etc…is there not a sense of all or nothing about this? You either live love or you don’t? When push really comes to shove? I see a constant battle between the concepts of territorial flesh vs. Holy Spirit breathed hospitality.
I don’t mean to sound “pep rallyish” with this but "what if"....
What if people knew about what He did?
What if we lived by His example?
What if we went beyond education?
What if we offered our lives for His name’s sake?
What if we hushed for a second and took in His whisper of claim?
What if there was a coming together?
What if love was shown without words?
What if we actually caught a mustard seed sized realization of His purpose?
What if we lived accordingly in the knowledge of His truth?
When this blares in my head there is such a cry…such an urgency that gets fogged over by the going’s on of my day. What if I offered my whole life to this? What if the people I worked with everyday knew that Jesus loved unconditionally? What would it look like if Jesus used me to show them? Sounds exhausting... What would come if people came together over this? I think Claiborne's got some great examples...
Community, Holy Spirit, Prayer…all things I didn’t go into depth about yet are essential for any change to happen.
(Sorry for the novel…)
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